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On Friday, January 11th, 2002, singletail artist Robert Dante joined 26 people for an hour-plus chat on bullwhips and other topics. Also attending was Journey, Robert's business manager. This is a heavily edited transcript of the formal chat and selected comments which followed it. In addition to correction of spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and syntax, comments were resequenced to place them in a more appropriate order for easier reading. A raw, unedited version of the chat from the time Journey arrived until she left is also available for downloading.
Special thanks to:
SheBytch{B}: [Why don't you] start by telling us how you got stated and stuff like that.
Dante: How I started? Started what? There have been so many startings.
SheBytch{B}: What made you pick up a bullwhip?
Dante: Bullwhip. I saw a Top -- Ken Fontenot -- in Houston use a short 4-footer on someone. I had respect for him as a man, and great respect for his use of the whip. I saw The Colonel use the whip, later. I resolved to learn. I am usually very good, very quickly, at whatever I put my mind to, but the bullwhip proved to be the hardest thing I ever attempted. Like writing -- and I am a writer. I also got the greatest satisfaction when I learned. I kept going, and I started asking everyone I could find questions about the whip. And it turned out that no one knew a thing.
SheBytch{B}: What have you written?
Dante: I published a book of poetry. I've published 100 individual poems. I published 300 bylined articles for such publications as Dance America. I was a past member of the American Theater Critics Association and the Society of Professional Journalists. I started the University of Houston Chapter. I won the 1991 award for best nonfiction story awarded by the Texas Community Newspaper Society. I now do columns, reviews, etc. I also wrote a lot of the articles in Boudoir Noir Magazine under pseudonyms, because I didn't think people wanted to see my name in print so much.
And I am finishing Bullwhip Magic, THE book on the bullwhip which should appeal to both BDSM and mainstream audiences. Right now only Andrew Conway has a book about how to crack the bullwhip. Now there will be two. It will be published by Mystic Rose Press, publishers of Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns. Molly and I have been talking about this for a long time, because in the original Screw the Roses, I am the only author besides her and Philip Miller in the book -- and the only reason I'm in there is that they didn't feel qualified to write about the bullwhip, so they asked me to contribute. This just kind of follows up on that association.
SheBytch{B}: What do you think is the best way to start to learn to use a singletail?
Dante: Try other people's whips. Watch videos. Get info, first. Get a lesson from someone who knows what they are doing. Some who REALLY knows what they are doing. In this field, it's too much of the Blind Leading the Blind.
MasterRedBeard: I like Joe Wheeler whips; what kind do you like? I have been using the whips for three years.
Dante: Wheeler makes good whips, but buy one already made. If you send him money and wait, you be standing in a long line.
MasterRedBeard: I know. I got one that was [already] made.
Dante: I use Mike Murphy's whips, and Russell Schultz. V. Tella makes good whips, and Joe Strain, and Peter Jack -- there are now starting to be fine whipmakers, some in the US.
JamesADM: I know that you need a LOT of room to work with a bullwhip, but there are also signal whips and whatnot... what's the size whip a person should use if they want to work in a normal room with, say, 8 foot ceilings, and how much room do they need length/widthwise in a room?
Dante: With a signal whip, if you are strict with your form, you can work with 6 feet side to side, 8 feet or so front to back, 7 feet overhead. This is why it's a good whip for a dungeon, because most dungeons don't have the empty space of a basketball court. This limits horizontal work, but you can do 45-degree X's fine. The key is to be in control.
It helps to reposition your bottom, too -- why should you do ALL the work?
SheBytch{B}: How does one go about finding competent contacts to learn to use a whip?
Dante: Ask someone. Like me. Or Andrew Conway. Or V. Tella. The good ones are happy to share information.
MysticWolf: Dante for buildup practice, you may want to let those that haven't tried a singletail yet know how to start. Like I was taught outside, slowly narrowing my range in, IE pole practice.
Dante: Yes and no. The first thing is to get the feel of the whip so you know where it is, how fast it will move, what its natural rhythm is. Most people try to power the whip, and when you do this, you lessen its efficiency. Get the basic cracks down first. Then, when you can control where you want it to crack, move to poles, etc. But go one step at a time. You can't get there before the whip does. Definitely practice on poles, plush toys, etc. before you approach a human being.
SheBytch{B}: Do you do more vanilla shows or fetish?
Dante: I think it's about half and half -- I'm not sure. Journey?
Journey: Half and half, Robert. :)
Dante: It's a little like apples and oranges. If I do a circus gig, I might do three shows in one night. My portion may be 5 minutes or 10 minutes, balls-to-wall fast. A BDSM workshop is two or three hours of intensity, but it's only one for the day. And I am fried afterward.
JamesADM: Could you take a moment to talk a bit about how safe and/or dangerous this is, to give us a feel for the risks if you jump in without enough understanding and practice versus how safe it can be if you get your ducks in a row?
Dante: It can be dangerous. I slice bananas in my demos. A whip can cut skin. When it hits, it has enough force behind it to break small bones. A whip is breaking the sound barrier. That's 750 miles per hour. That's 1400 feet per second. A bullet leaves the muzzle of a gun at 1100 feet per second. You can see the power in the whip by this.
MasterRedBeard: Do you think all whips move differently? I tried using a friend's and it did not work for me.
Dante: There is no single good style of whip. Different whipmakers make great whips differently, to match the way they actually throw whips themselves. A smaller person will be more comfortable with a lighter whip with a smaller width handle. Someone who wants to go slower for power and accuracy will have a little more weight put into the handle. It really is an individual thing. That's why it's a good idea to get together with other whip users (even vanilla ones) to try their whips. You will find one that sings in your hand, feels like it was made for you. Get that whipmaker's name!
JamesADM: What does the "target" feel? What's your goal when you throw a shot at a human target, sensation-wise?
Dante: To nail them into their body and to take them out of their body. There is no sensation like it, outside of an emergency room. I know someone is putting a lot of trust into me when they stand before me. I am an executioner. I am a priest, opening the door to a dimension of themselves they may have only sensed distantly -- and I make it as real as devastation, as sweet as love.
MysticWolf: Are you ambidextrous with your singletails, Dante? The reason I ask is, mine have been put up since my car accident. I always used my left hand and have been thinking about trying my right. But I'm wondering, how hard was it for you to learn with your lesser-used arm?
Dante: I had to start using my left hand when I broke my right hand. It was awkward, but I found it actually made me a better whipcracker in my right hand, too. When you use both hands, you are educating both sides of your brain. And when you use you passive side hand, you completely end-run your intellect. You can't think about what you're doing the way you over-intellectualize with your dominant hand.
MysticWolf: Thank you, that gives me hope indeed. <Smile>
JamesADM: Based on the "nothing like it outside the ER" comment, is this a "sport" only for masochists on the receiving end?
Dante: Of course not. The whip has a range of sensations from 1.0 to 9.9. Not everyone goes into the high numbers -- or can, with any regularity. But there are fear trips, or daring edge-play scenes -- the world is unlimited. Masochists are holy people, though. They have the biochemistry that allows them to experience exalted states of intensity. And I can put them there. By doing this, I partake of their experience and get high, myself.
deffie{CW}: You talked about how single tails and bull whips travel at the speed of sound and how it can harm someone, break small bones, skin, etc. Can you talk about where NOT to hit someone? ("Woo hoo!" about the masochists!)
Dante: In front of a video camera. You cannot consent to be assaulted, in this country. Stay away from face, eyes, kidneys. Pretty basic stuff.
Renee_: Do you try to get bottoms/subs to try this if they have no desire? Or is it better to use candidates who have some glimmer of interest?
Dante: Why do they stand before me if they have no desire? They have a desire for SOMETHING. And this is what I try to give them. They may have a FANTASY about going somewhere, but it's my job to settle fantasy from reality, and if I do my job right, they go to that place where the two coincide. It's the Surreal Experience, as truly as Breton defined it in 1924.
Capt_Pizzle: What would you recommend for a beginner, stay with floggers and cats, crops and paddles? Or is there a logical starting point for the singletail on people?
Dante: Always start with your hands. Every toy, from canes to crops to floggers to bullwhips, should be an extension of your hand.
A scene ought to be choreographed, like a dance. I like three movements. Slow-quick-slow, ramping up in intensity. Sometimes I will use a single instrument for this, but I use it at different levels of intensity. When I want the toys to do the work for me, I start with a horsehair flogger, move to a leather flogger, then cap it with the bullwhip. After the catharsis, take them back down, reversing the order of the instruments. They will feel like different toys, by this time. They will swear you used 20 different implements on them!
deffie{CW}: The first scene I had a single tail used at the end, it was great. I fell in love from the first moment :o)
CodeWarrior: Do you think there's a best type of leather for bullwhips, or is it a matter of personal preference?
Dante: Kangaroo. Half the weight, twice the strength of regular cow hide. The additional strength allows the whipmaker to make a VERY tight braid, and this allows the little energy you put into the whip to travel all the way without the energy being expended. It's more efficient.
SheBytch{B}: When you practice, do you use something soft like a Styrofoam dummy?
Dante: Not any more. I used to use a plush toy a lot, because the fur allowed me to see where I was striking, and with what force.
JamesADM: Do you ever use human targets in your "vanilla" performances, and what's the mix of reactions in a BDSMish demo when you work a person? Is it mostly shock, or intrigue, or appreciation, or...?
Dante: It's different every time, and the same every time. I scare people when I do target work in a vanilla performance -- but the key is that the person escapes from harm. The pretty girl looks sexy and vulnerable, which makes the whip seem more dangerous -- which makes the payoff greater when she comes through unscathed. The vanilla and BDSM shows are basically the same cracks, just presented differently.
JamesADM: Are the reactions basically the same as well?
Dante: The older audiences freak out. They can't stand the sight of a man whipping a woman. But the kids, the ravers and fire people, they love it.
MysticWolf: What do you treat your horsehair with to keep it from shattering on the sub [with] those little cactus needles? Just curious.
Dante: I shampoo my horsehair and then use conditioner for split ends. I haven't had problems.
Balan: What is the proper way to crack a whip, or to get started?
Dante: Going AWAY from you!
Balan: <Smile> Well that was a given.
Dante: Go to a workshop. Practice with someone there. WEAR EYE PROTECTION, please. No kidding. There are basically three cracks. Start with the overhand, go to the circus crack, then master the Stockman's Crack. Most cracks are variations on one of these strokes.
JamesADM: Balan said that cracking away from yourself is a given... but I understand it's really easy to whack yourself if you're not careful. Can you comment on that?
Dante: Sure -- the whip is moving. If the plane of the whip's trajectory ever intersects you, you will get hit. If you pull the whip back at yourself, you will get hit. After the whip cracks, it is still moving -- it you are not mindful, you will get hit.
The whip is a lesson in Logical Consequences. When you ride a motorcycle, the ride ain't over until you turn the engine off and place the bike on its sidestand. The whip is not "dead" until it is completely not moving. While it is still moving, even a little, it can bite you. At any point in its movement.
Balan: What would you recommend for someone who is unable to attend a workshop, to do it right?
Dante: A good video. Or my book, when it is published. It is precisely because a lot of people can't get to my workshops that I have written it.
JamesADM: Joke question: Gee, can you think of a video to recommend? :o) Serious question: Is it possible to learn single-tail from a book, and how much harder/different is it than being taught face to face?
Dante: Not a joke, actually. My own video, of course, is still the standard. Especially for S&M. But Mike Murphy has a basic whipcracking tape that is fabulous, will put you in control of the whip quickly and cleanly. Also, Andrew Conway's book is a good one, especially for beginners.
It's like trying to learn to swim from a book, or to dance. You can look at the pictures, you can even have a video and start-stop and try to mimic the moves -- but to get there firmly, you should actually dance with someone. This is why, in my workshops, I try to actually work WITH people. I will stand behind them, my hand on their hand, and make the crack so they can FEEL it. When they feel it, I see the light bulb come on, "Aha!" One show is worth 10,000 words.
Journey: In regards to Balan's question, I would like to add that to practice on balloons, and stuffed animals is the key, constant practice outdoors. Whipcracking comes from the diaphragm not the wrist, and remember don't crack the whip on concrete :)
Dante: True enough, Journey.
SheBytch{B}: Have you ever hurt yourself or your assistant during a performance?
Dante: Yes, I have. Over the years, I have cut my assistant on two occasions, because there was outside interference which I did not foresee. It was still my responsibility. I have cut myself, and bruised myself, but mostly in practice, when I am trying to learn new moves or combinations.
Hisbadgirl: Dante, do you have a website listing workshops etc?
Dante: My own website is at http://www.bullwhip.net. My BDSM page is a secret backdoor -- at the bottom of the first page, the whip/initial logo is clickable and will take you to http://www.bullwhip.net/dantebdsm.html. There, you will see the other side of me, and the bullwhip video. I don't have this on my main site, because kids cruise there. I coordinate LA Whip Enthusiasts, a sport cracking group, and a few of our members are minors.
CodeWarrior: You mentioned Houston a couple times. Is there a good vendor of bullwhips in Houston? I don't like the thought of ordering online, not being able to return the item, and being dissatisfied with the quality of what I bought for $300 or more.
Dante: Can't say I blame you. This is why I recommend only Mike Murphy and Peter Jack, so far. They deliver. There are some other good ones, but you're taking a chance. Sorry, but it's so -- and at these prices, you don't want to get stiffed. Joe Wheeler is a great whipmaker, but he screwed me and I will not forget that.
JamesADM: For those considering buying a whip, unless the artisan or vendor is BDSM-friendly, you're best to NOT mention what you're going to do with it. There are some whipmakers that will refuse to sell to you if they know you'll use it for BDSM.
Dante: This is mostly David Morgan. Most of the other ones don't want to know and don't care.
JamesADM: Morgan is the one in Australia?
Dante: No, he's Welsh. His wife is Aussie. He is in Seattle.
deffie{CW}: I understand that Morgan really isn't that great, he's just well known is all.
Dante: No, he actually makes a good whip -- or used to. He now has whips sold under his name that are made by other people, and the quality is sometimes variable. But he also used good whipmakers -- like Joe Wheeler, Joe Strain.
deffie{CW}: Ok, yes, that's mostly what I heard, that he used to be good when it was him, but now one can never be sure.
SheBytch{B}: Okay, we will drop the formal chat now and let people mingle. Thank you all for your cooperation.
Dante: Anything not answered that people really wanted to know?
lynnya{CP}: I am dying to know... why not hit concrete?
Journey: It will destroy the whip, lynnya.
Dante: If you hit concrete, you might as well take sandpaper and rub it roughly over your whip, wearing it away and weakening the strands.
SheBytch{B}: When do you start your tour?
Dante: Hah! Which one? I am doing Seattle/Vancouver in March, working on Phoenix/Houston for April, and doing England 10 days in May.
CodeWarrior: When in April for Houston, Robert?
deffie{CW}: And with what group or whatever? (We're in Houston.)
Dante: Still being negotiated. Some pro dommes have pooled their resources, and now it looks like there are folks in Austin who'd like to have me. It's all going through Journey.
Capt_Pizzle: For the novice with a novice sub where do you recommend starting, Robert?
Dante: Get Screw the Roses, Send me the Thorns. Remember that one size does not fit all. It has to work for both people, or it's not working. "Ride the horse in the direction it's going."
Capt_Pizzle: I have it already; it is out of print according to the bookstore, by the way.
Journey: He's right Robert, it is.
Capt_Pizzle: Still are copies around, but they are going up in price.
Dante: Went into 5th printing. Still selling strong. 50,000 copies sold, so far.
JamesADM: Robert, did you want to speak a bit about your activist efforts over the years? (Personally I think you should have gone after Canada Customs with that bullwhip.)
Dante: I tried to help point out Dangerous Tops, I tried to help reshape laws against pro dommes, I tried to help torpedo laws that sought to take children from parents who were into SM, and I tried to give SM a human face in the mainstream media. From what I can see, I failed. But the scene is the way it is today because of my contribution to the effort, along with folks like Molly Devon, Phillip Miller, Tony DeBlaise, etc.
I have lost a great deal trying to help this community, personally. And I have seen honour betrayed by ambition, and that this community can eat its own at the drop of a hat. I am now no longer considering myself an activist. As Proximo, the retired gladiator said in Gladiator, "Never forget -- you are just an entertainer."
Balan: Well anyone who tries is not a failure.
Dante: I am proud of helping Bettie Page protect her rights to her own name in Canada. Northbound Leather can now no longer make a fortune with their Bettie Page Social Club and not give her a dime, as they did for years.
JamesADM: I think "failed" is far too strong a word. One person can't change it all. But all the efforts add up. And you certainly revealed the ludicrousness of the customs department. Thank you for your efforts over the years.
Dante: I had no choice. I did it by default, only because no one else was doing anything. There are now others trying to do this, and I applaud their efforts. I hope the best for them.
SheBytch{B}: We are coming around, slowly being accepted into society.
deffie{CW}: VERY slowly.
JamesADM: With setbacks.
Journey: BDSM/SM have made great strides in the legal community. It isn't as commonplace to lose one's children over issues like this anymore.
Dante: It will happen. It must -- it is evolution. It will not be stemmed. But we should do it with our eyes open.
SheBytch{B}: Thank you, Robert and Journey, for making this event happen for us.
Journey: SB, it is our pleasure :)
Dante: If anyone has any further questions, please feel free to email me. If I do not have the answer, I might be able to point you in the right direction to someone who can help you.
JamesADM: Robert, I have to compliment you, you drew enough of a crowd to give us a new user count record tonight. :o)
Dante: Excellent! How many?
Hisbadgirl: When I signed in the count was 26.
justine: Thank you so much Robert, this was so interesting!
Balan: Yes I enjoyed it very much; it answered some questions I have had. This has been most helpful.
deffie{CW}: Thank you, Mr. Dante. :o) Very interesting.
CodeWarrior: It's been a fascinating discussion, and I'm glad we were here.
SheBytch{B}: Yes Robert, thank you for sharing with us!
bella{B}: Nite E/everyone. Thank You Mr. Dante Sir, I enjoyed listening to you tonite. :)
Gallahad: Yes, it was fascinating.
